Punjabi

[Jesus Bhai]

is their any difference between pakistani and indian punjab language?

Haha, glad to see this post! Finally someone to talk to about this stuff!

Nothing really major. A lot of my Dad's friends are from Pakistan and they sound just like him when they speak Punjabi. The differences come up when reading and writing, or when listening to News or perhaps listening to some music.

In Pakistan you have an emphasis placed on using Urdu/Persian/Arabic vocabulary, whereas in India, an emphasis is placed on Sanskrit/Hindi vocabulary. In Pakistan, they'd write Punjabi in a script that's almost the exact same as Urdu, called Shahmukhi. In India they have a script called Gurmukhi, which is similar to Devanagari, and In my opinion, A LOT easier to read and write, as well as learn.

Aside from that you have things like dialects which change based on region. That's another discussion though, as some dialects sound like new languages!

[Meera]

Aren't some dialects not multi intelligable though? Not the major ones, but I think I heard in some villages it would be hard fot the average Punjabi speaker to understand, but again I think this is another issue entirely. Majority of Punjabi speakers can understand each other though.

[Saim]

It depends on what you mean by "dialect". In Pakistan, most of the unintelligible "dialects" groups have gone through some form of ethnogenesis, that is, they don't really see themselves as Punjabis or Punjabi-speakers anymore, if they ever did. Nowadays there is a "Greater Punjab" region where you can find the Punjabi, Saraiki, Hindko and Potwari languages spoken. All these linguistic varieties are claimed by some Punjabis as "dialects" of the language.

This is just my limited experience on the internet though. I've seen people refer to Pindi Potwari (the Potwari spoken in Punjab) as "Punjabi dialects", but it doesn't seem so common among Saraikis, Paharis (Azad Kashmir Potwari-speakers) and Hindkowans.

But people from "Punjab proper", that is, the northeastern part of today's province of Punjab, speak pretty much the same as the Indian Punjabis (besides a lot of Urdu influence).

[Meera]

It depends on what you mean by "dialect". In Pakistan, most of the unintelligible "dialects" groups have gone through some form of ethnogenesis, that is, they don't really see themselves as Punjabis or Punjabi-speakers anymore, if they ever did. Nowadays there is a "Greater Punjab" region where you can find the Punjabi, Saraiki, Hindko and Potwari languages spoken. All these linguistic varieties are claimed by some Punjabis as "dialects" of the language.

This is just my limited experience on the internet though. I've seen people refer to Pindi Potwari (the Potwari spoken in Punjab) as "Punjabi dialects", but it doesn't seem so common among Saraikis, Paharis (Azad Kashmir Potwari-speakers) and Hindkowans.

But people from "Punjab proper", that is, the northeastern part of today's province of Punjab, speak pretty much the same as the Indian Punjabis (besides a lot of Urdu influence).

Shukriya Saim. This is pretty much what I was thinking. I think Hindko, Saraiki Hindko and Potwari are listed as seperate regional languages in Pakistan now? I think the regional languages of Pakistan are very interesting. The languages of the entire subcontinent are just so rich and amazing.

[Saim]

Only Saraiki was present in the last batch of Census data (1998, I think). I don't know whether Potwari-Pahari and Hindko were counted under "other" or under "Punjabi". Here's the data:

http://www.census.gov.pk/MotherTongue.htm

Yeah, it's great that there's this diversity, which is why it's such a damn shame Pakistan is doing so little to cultivate it. Only very recently has Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa go mother tongue education (or it was going to, I remember reading it in the paper last time I was in Pakistan and then seeing it again on the internet). There are also Balochi and Sindhi medium schools, AFAIK. Beyond that, there isn't much official recognition for any of the languages of Pakistan (only Sindhi is even explicitly defined as a "provincial language"). Thankfully most of the languages have some sort of regional movement attached to them, the only exceptions being Punjabi (whose regional movement is exceptionally weak, especially compared to the Sindhi or Balochi ones) and Potwari (which may have one but I've never heard of it, the closest I've heard is some British Potwaris insisting on being "Kashmiris who speak Pahari" and not "Pakistanis").

There's this idea in Pakistan that Pakistaniyat has to be a deductive national identity. What I mean is, that not only do you add Pakistani to the list of things you are, but you have to substract Brahui or Hindkowan or Pashtun as well. I remember asking some of the security guards on my street what their ethnicity was. Some of them enjoyed it - one man said that he was from NWFP, and was extremely happy when I knew what Pashto was. But some of them are like "no! we are Muslims and Pakistanis first! nothing else matters!". And I think to myself, well no, fuck that! You should be human first!

Somehow I can't imagine that happening in India. I have this feeling that Indianness belongs to "whoever is in India", while "Pakistani" is taken as synonymous with "Urdu-speaking Muslim". Of course India has the same problems as Pakistan (Bodoland, Kashmir, Tripura...), but not nearly as pronounced.

Anyway, that's my little rant on Pakistani nationalism.

[Meera]

Yes its really sad what is happening in Pakistan with the regional languages being forgotten for Urdu

[Jesus Bhai]

It'll be up to people like us then to learn Punjabi and keep it alive. As well as spread it to others, eh?

Sahi e ke nahin, doston?

[Saim]

Shut up Jesusbhai, you're just an Indian secret services guy trying to tear apart Pakistan.

AoA,

I see there are still Sikh Punjabi nationalists and other Indian agents masquerading on this blog and trying to cause strife between Pakistanis. As a Muslim I can tell you that you agents are living in a dreamworld Urdu is far more superior to Punjabi. Urdu uses the Arabic script (a different style like Farsi) and its vocabulary has much Arabic, Farsi, and Turkish unlike Punjabi. The Urdu alphabet is very similar to Arabic. Therefore, it makes sense to use the Arabic script. On the other hand, the Punjabi language and its pronunciation is nowhere related to Middle Eastern languages. Many of the sounds in Punjabi do not even have an equivalent in Arabic letters. On top of this, almost all Punjabis in Pakistan speak and understand Urdu. Urdu and now increasing English are the languages of the intelligent and educated in Pakistan. And inshallah it will stay that way. Allah Hafiz

WE R MUSLIMS SO WE MUSt SPEAK URDU

I really do not care what the kuffar and munafiqs, and other enemies of Pakistan have to say. Urdu is our national language, and part of the fabric of Pakistan. You Indian agents can cry all day, but if you don't like it go and live with the Sikhs in India, but don't bring your crap into Pakistan by causing trouble between Muslims. Pakistan was created as a state for Muslims, so I don't care what you say. If you want to learn other languages learn Arabic, English or Chinese. Urdu is a Muslim language derived from Persian & Arabic; introduced & popularized in India mainly by the Mughals it is part of the Islamic history of India when we ruled India for centuries.

oA,

Punjabi is a dying language in Pakistan and is not being revided Alhamdullilah. In Punjab educated people speak Urdu and kids learn Urdu at school, Punjabi has no official status. We should leave this language for the Sikhs and focus on Urdu as the language for Muslims.

JK, no all Punjabis are not one. As a Muslim I am not one with those who assicoate partners with Allah (SWT) and who do not accpe the prophethood of Muhammad (SAW). All Muslims are one and in the Indian sub-continent Urdu should be the unifying language of Muslims.

A0A,

My opinion is based on facts. I see you have Indians on your blog trying to set Pakistanis against one another on the basis of language. Punjabi Muslims glorified Urdu and looked up to it. You must realize that Punjabi is not a literary language like Urdu, never has been. Of course then it makes sense to use widespread Urdu.

When a Muslim from another country such as Lebanon asks where are you from, why don’t you say Punjab and that you speak Punjabi instead of Pakistan and speak Urdu? Is it because they will automatically associate you with Sikhs and consider you less Muslim? (They probably will!)

You have to laugh at these Sikhs like Rana attempting to cause trouble in Pakistan. Sort your own problems out first before trying to turn Pakistanis against one another, amongst the educated classes in Punjab only English and Urdu count as serious languages. We also need Arabic for religious purposes. If you sikhs want to keep the so-called Punjabi culture alive do it in India and keep out of Pakistan’s affairs.

Allah Hafiz and peace to all Muslims in Pakistan and India and across the world.

Although to be fair, some Punjabi nationalists are just as mental:

Division of Punjab to backfire:
Punjabs unnatural,forced,illegal,unconstitutional division and Creation of a hate based satanic Seraiki province on the soil of Punjab by Zardari and Gilani is bound to back fire.People must not forget that division of Punjab is an imperialists agneda to disintegrate nuclear Paksitan through back door(civil war).Why Benazeer was assissinated now the agnda is unfloding.what PPP is doing wid Punjab,Sindh and Pakistan an and ignoring Balochistan is understandable.All is pre planned.

Jaag mere Punjab ke Pakistan chala.....crush the enmmies of Punjab.Save Punjab to Save Balochistan,to save Sindh and to save Paksitan.if Punjab divided Pakistan is no more.Punjab the ancient motherland of Punjabis under attack by aliens.Punjabis rise save Punjab..Punjab zinda baad.

The moral of the story: nationalism is insane.

[Jesus Bhai]

hhahahaha my last name is Rana!

[Meera]

Shut up Jesusbhai, you're just an Indian secret services guy trying to tear apart Pakistan.

LOL That made me laugh. It sounds like some comments I see on yotube on Bollywood videos lmao

[Jesus Bhai]

You all may have noticed (or maybe it's just me) that when reading through resources for Punjabi, you're learning a way of speech that no one else in the real world uses. You'll read some stuff, memorize it and try it out with someone and they say to you "What are you talking about? Is that punjabi or some made up language?"

I've run into this problem quite too often for my liking, so today, I've come up with a new project. I am personally going to write a colloquial punjabi text book, which I will then distribute for free online for anyone to read through and hopefully learn from. I JUST came up with the idea, but anyone interested in contributing or being a part of writing such a book, do let me know.

As always I'm available on Skype at: luckysdew

It's dawned on me that in order for me to get the resources I want, I'll have to make them myself, and thus I've come up with the idea above. Essentially by teaching others, I'll be learning.

[Meera]

You all may have noticed (or maybe it's just me) that when reading through resources for Punjabi, you're learning a way of speech that no one else in the real world uses. You'll read some stuff, memorize it and try it out with someone and they say to you "What are you talking about? Is that punjabi or some made up language?"

I've run into this problem quite too often for my liking, so today, I've come up with a new project. I am personally going to write a colloquial punjabi text book, which I will then distribute for free online for anyone to read through and hopefully learn from. I JUST came up with the idea, but anyone interested in contributing or being a part of writing such a book, do let me know.

As always I'm available on Skype at: luckysdew

It's dawned on me that in order for me to get the resources I want, I'll have to make them myself, and thus I've come up with the idea above. Essentially by teaching others, I'll be learning.

This is an amazing idea! You know it's hard to find Punjabi books as it is. I don't know much Punjabi but I would be glad to help on this.

[Jesus Bhai]

Yeah that was exactly what I was thinking. And as far as knowing Punjabi goes, that's alright. It'll be a good way for you to learn! You can help with checking how useful it is as a learning resource, for example. Don't worry I'll find ways to keep you busy

[Meera]

Yeah that was exactly what I was thinking. And as far as knowing Punjabi goes, that's alright. It'll be a good way for you to learn! You can help with checking how useful it is as a learning resource, for example. Don't worry I'll find ways to keep you busy

Haha it will be fun

[Jesus Bhai]

Chal, sab to pehla, assi introduction likhna chaunda haan. Ke e kehri kitab e. Colloquial da matlab ki e?

tusi ki soch re o, doston? koi ideas e tere kolon? tera ki khiyal e?

[Meera]

Well, for an Introduction, I would give a general overview of the language, why it's important to learn,how difficult/easy it will be, and the history of Punjabi and the future of Punjabi. When I read langauge books my favorite part is useully the introduction, it's supposed to motivate you to start the language. Are you using the script in the Book? If you are using the script, before Unit 1 you should include a guide to how to read and write.

I hope these idea's help a little.

[Jesus Bhai]

Exactly. I also sometimes like introductions to books more than the books themselves. I'll PM you something I just came up with, see what you think

I can read and write Gurmukhi, sure. It's also easy to learn. I was thinking though that since there are actual useful guides for learning gumukhi on the net, I can just link to those, heh. Unless someone else comes on board who would be interested in writing a section for learning Gurmukhi, or even Shahmukhi.

I will write the lessons in Gurmukhi and Roman though. That I always find helpful, to have both there.

[Meera]

Exactly. I also sometimes like introductions to books more than the books themselves. I'll PM you something I just came up with, see what you think

I can read and write Gurmukhi, sure. It's also easy to learn. I was thinking though that since there are actual useful guides for learning gumukhi on the net, I can just link to those, heh. Unless someone else comes on board who would be interested in writing a section for learning Gurmukhi, or even Shahmukhi.

I will write the lessons in Gurmukhi and Roman though. That I always find helpful, to have both there.

That would be very helpful !

[Jesus Bhai]

Very soon, a friend and I are going to be releasing a little Document we've been working on, which is basically a large list of tools to help people learn Punjabi. We've organized and sorted it in such a way where people looking to learn certain things can search through it and find the resource they need.

Any suggestions or things you'd like to see make it into the first edition, please let me know and I'll be more than happy to try and have them included.

Next order of business, Saim and I are beginning another little project, in which we plan to expand the content of Punjabi wikipedia and wiktionary content. So I say we move the discussion of this topic from music to things you think we should work on.

What sorts of things, do you as fellow language learners like to learn about? Simple vocab? Phrases? History? Curse words? Poetry? Grammar?

I should add, that I've sort of begun running a long list of Projects whose sole intention is the Preservation and Promotion of the Punjabi Language. If you feel like you have something to contribute, and can do it regularly, send me a PM expressing interest and I'll be happy to include you in the loop. To put things in perspective, I have a running list of around 15 projects right now.

[Meera]

This is amazing! Thanks Bhai!! I think words for conversations would be the best to start with along with Grammar