Difference between Ć and Č

[evilbu]

Or the difference between Ћ ,ћ and Ч, ч .

I still don't really get it. Since my native language doesn't really use those sounds that much, I find it hard to hear the difference. There wouldn't happen to be some material on the net (youtube?) where I could hear the difference?

Many thanks,
evilbu

[kibo]

Yeah, I can understand that it could be a difficulty for learners, it's hard even for some native speakers, but I don't see how to teach you the difference. I'm afraid I don't know how youtube can help here.

However, I have recorded some words in which č and ć alternate. The last four words are the only two minimal pairs I could think of. No wonder it represents a difficulty.

The words are: čovek, ćorav, čekam, ćevap, čiča, ćilim, čar, ćar, spavačica, spavaćica

ch-cj.mp3

[evilbu]

Thanks for the clip! You're right, it really is hard. I really have difficulty hearing any differences between the two sounds.

[kibo]

Well, dunno how to help you except giving you the articulatory description

- ć - the tongue tip is placed on the lower incisor and the tongue blade is on the hard palate
- č - the tongue tip and a part of the blade is on the hard palate

Don't get your tongue tied up in a knot though

(Btw, do you have the same problem with đ and dž?)

[Knabo]

And even if you don't manage to learn it won't really matter since it's "normal" to make such mistakes. If it helps, in my town people don't differ them at all . That goes only for pronunciation, it does look strange if write them wrong.

[polishboy]

No, I don't think it is dificult.
Č is simply ch in English.
And Ć is soft C.
We in Poland have also these sounds.

[voron]

Serbian ć is not equal to Polish ć.

ć - the tongue tip is placed on the lower incisor

[evilbu]

I'm afraid that I'll just say "it's the same" for now.
By the way, they played "Crna mačka, beli mačor" on Flemish public television yesterday, but as usual it's just written "Crna macka, beli macor". Most newspapers don't support the characters or simply don't care, it's funny how often names are mispronounced here as well.

[Ved]

I don't know if it helps at all, but

č = Often transcribed as ʧ, but it's actually tʂ

ć = ʨ

dž = Often transcribed as ʤ, but it's actually dʐ

đ = ʥ

If you know how to pronounce IPA symbols, you should be able to get just the right sounds.

[Gruszka]

What I don't understand is that alveo-palatal affricates appear both in Serbocroatian and Polish, but Serbocroatian ć and đ sound much harder than Polish ć and dź...

I have rather the impression ć is not really alveo-palatal, but a palatalised č (and đ is a palatalised ž)


Serbocroatian:

č = tʃ
ć = tʃʲ

or

č = tʂ
ć = tʃ

Polish

cz = tʂ
ć = tɕ

[wolf_88]

I don't speak polish, but i know that the Serbian č is certainly not the same as the English "ch" as in church or chimney.
This may also be so cause there actually is a difference between Serbian and Croatian consonants, so you may be confused if you go into such detail, observing the language as Serbocroatian (not that they are very different).

From Wikipedia:
In Serbian, the phonemes /tʃ/, /cç/, /dʒ/, and /ɟj/ (in contrast to Croatian and Bosnian vernaculars) have an independent phonetic realization in most vernaculars.[11]
^ P. Ivic, Dva glavna pravca razvoja konsonantizma u srpskohrvatskom jeziku, Iz istorije srpskohrvatskog jezika, Niš 1991, p. 82ff.

Gruszka - im not sure how good you know serbian, but you can try see Đ and Ž as voiced partners od Ć and Š... as in:
voiced Š = Ž
voiced Ć = Đ
voiced Č = Dž

You are right about the palatalization thing, though. There are 5 consonants traditionally regarded as "soft", and those are the palatal ones, so it could be that they came to be such by a process of palatalization.

[Gruszka]

I think you misunderstood me... My question deals with the fact, that the Polish " ć " as well as the BCS " ć " are said to be alveopalatal sounds (the same applies to " dź vs. đ "), but they sound differently. The BCS " ć " is not as hard as "cz/č", but still much harder than the Polish " ć ".
This is what I do not understand...