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My first post

Permanent Linkby loqu on 2009-04-12, 20:38

I didn't know what to post about in the UL blog. But I have thought of a topic I've been working on and this seems a pretty good place to post it.

I have been working on an alphabet for my dialect, Andalusian, based on the Arabic script, but not with purely Arabic letters because there are a lot of sounds we have and MSA doesn't.

With Latin letters it's pretty common to re-establish their phonemic value, but with Arabic ones it's not so common, hence I have tried to keep actual values of the letters.

First I will expose the phonemes of Andalusian. Each row are the different sounds for the same phoneme (I mean, there is no phonemic difference between the two sounds of the same row).

VOWELS
[a]
[e]
[i]
[o]
[u]

CONSONANTS
[p]
[b] [β]
[t]
[d] [ð]
[k]
[g] [ɣ]
[m]
[n] [ŋ]
[ɲ]
[r]
[ɾ]
[f]
[θ] [s]
[ʃ] [tʃ]
[ʝ]
[h] [x]
[l]
[ʎ]

I think I'm not forgetting any.
The goal is to assign an Arabic letter to each row.
ISSUES FOUND:
- aspiration because of a former "s" makes some sounds mutate so that there is some phonetic difference. Should this mutation be reflexed 'as is' or should the aspiration be represented by an 'aspiration marker' wherever it appears?
- should sounds that are merged in a big part of the country be represented by the same letter? or should the differentiating dialects be respected, though minoritary.

I will have to think about that.
___________________
The first solution I've given:

VOWELS
ا [a] like in Arabic.
ێ [e] from Kurdish.
ي [i] from Arabic.
ۆ [o] from Kurdish.
و [u] from Arabic.

CONSONANTS
پ [p] from Farsi.
ب [b] [β] from Arabic.
ت [t] from Arabic.
د [d] [ð] from Arabic.
ك [k] from Arabic.
گ [g] [ɣ] from Ottoman and Farsi.
م [m] from Arabic.
ن [n] [ŋ] from Arabic.
ڽ [ɲ] from Jawi.
رّ[r] I'm not sure about this. I think I should come up with a different letter, instead of using a tashdid and the letter for [ɾ].
ر [ɾ] from Arabic.
ف [f] from Arabic.
ث [θ] [s] since both sounds are the same phoneme, I've decided to use this letter because it was supposed to mean [θ] in MSA but is pronounced [s] today, AFAIK.
ش [ʃ] [tʃ] from Arabic.
ژ [ʝ] this letter represents [ʒ] in Urdu and Kurdish, and that's a similar sound, we don't have [ʒ].
ه [h] [x] from Arabic.
ل [l] from Arabic.
ڵ [ʎ] supposedly represents [lˁ] in Kurdish, and this one is also related to [l].
ٔ (hamza) would be the aspiration marker. It's a glottal stop in Arabic, so it has little to do with our aspiration anyway.
Last edited by loqu on 2009-04-12, 21:17, edited 2 times in total.

European, male, 25, gay -and proud-, non-monotheist
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es-AN en-US de ca pt la fr oc
someday... lt is nl no sq

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Re: My first post

Permanent Linkby Vogelvrij on 2009-04-14, 7:16

Sounds interesting :)
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Re: My first post

Permanent Linkby kalemiye on 2009-04-14, 13:51

ڽ [ɲ] from Jawi. <---- in ottoman turkish they write it using a Kef with three dots on it, maybe that is less confusing than this one that might be mistaken by ث. btw, ث is only s in certain dialects of Arabic, but is s in Turkish and Farsi, and maybe in Urdu too (not sure about this one)
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Re: My first post

Permanent Linkby kalemiye on 2009-04-14, 13:52

ژ also reprensets j in Persian and Turkish.
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Re: My first post

Permanent Linkby kalemiye on 2009-04-14, 13:54

Btw, cool attempt. Vas a poner alguna frasecilla para ver como queda?
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Yeter artık çeker oldum bu cihanın gamını...
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Re: My first post

Permanent Linkby loqu on 2009-04-14, 13:57

Por supuesto!! Muchas gracias por tus consejos, me parece una gran idea lo de la kef con tres puntos. En cuanto pula un poco más el alfabeto escribiré un par de cosillas, jeje.
European, male, 25, gay -and proud-, non-monotheist
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es-AN en-US de ca pt la fr oc
someday... lt is nl no sq
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Re: My first post

Permanent Linkby osias on 2009-04-16, 12:06

Quieres un software para conversión automática entre los dos?
Español: Quiero comprender todas las variedades y hablar como si fuese de Madrid
Català: Jo vull comprendre totes les varietats i parlar com si fós de Barcelona
Português: Quero entender todas as variedades e falar como se fosse de Vitória (ei, pelo menos essa meta eu atingi! )
English: I want to understand all varieties and speak as if i was from Gotham City.
Svenska: Jag vill förstå alla sorter och jag söker fortfarande efter ett lämpligt svenskt uttal att förhålla mig till.
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Re: My first post

Permanent Linkby loqu on 2009-04-17, 14:03

Desculpa, não vi!!!

Yes, it would be a very cool idea. How can I get it?

Thanks!
European, male, 25, gay -and proud-, non-monotheist
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es-AN en-US de ca pt la fr oc
someday... lt is nl no sq
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Re: My first post

Permanent Linkby jaybee on 2009-04-17, 22:35

ث is only pronounced [s] in some dialects. Other dialects have it as [t] and [θ].
Bottom line is, it doesn't matter because once you've written it down, it'll represent a good old [θ]. س is always [s] in all dialects, spoken and written.
Very interesting idea by the way! :)
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Re: My first post

Permanent Linkby osias on 2009-04-18, 11:23

loqu wrote:Desculpa, não vi!!!

Yes, it would be a very cool idea. How can I get it?

Thanks!


I would write. I actually have some scripts here doing roughly that for kanji, hiragana and hebrew script, but they're buggy and incomplete right now. Do you have msn or something so we can talk more directly?
Español: Quiero comprender todas las variedades y hablar como si fuese de Madrid
Català: Jo vull comprendre totes les varietats i parlar com si fós de Barcelona
Português: Quero entender todas as variedades e falar como se fosse de Vitória (ei, pelo menos essa meta eu atingi! )
English: I want to understand all varieties and speak as if i was from Gotham City.
Svenska: Jag vill förstå alla sorter och jag söker fortfarande efter ett lämpligt svenskt uttal att förhålla mig till.
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osias
 

Re: My first post

Permanent Linkby TheKickInside on 2009-04-25, 1:45

I've actually had the idea of doing this for English, but I had no idea where to begin until this. Very nice!
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Location: Sevilla, Andalusien // Hispalis, Baetica
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